Orca report

[nwwanderer]

Our governor has endorsed removal of Snake dams to increase sound orca numbers by ten.  Kind of a very long reach.  Why not start with miles of Puget sound spawning habitat now under asphalt and in culverts, remove the locks on Lake Washington and replant the old growth forest species by the space needle.  All would improve things way faster.

[DOUBLELUNG]

I'll just leave this here ...

[TheHunt]

Many of the Snake River salmon are produced by the Nes Pierce tribal hatcheries.  They do NOT clip any fish so they get by the fisher people on the Columbia. 

[7mmfan]

Snake River salmon will have virtually zero impact on South Sound resident Orcas. They're using the Orcas as a symbol and scapegoat to get the dams down. I really don't have any issue with removing those dams, I only see positive coming from it from a fisheries standpoint, but if resident Orca population improvement is the goal, Snake river dams won't help. No gillnets in Puget Sound and it's rivers, increase hatchery production/implement brood stock programs, and control marine mammal populations.  Get fish back in the Sound, and you'll find the whales do just fine.

[Stein]

Authorize hatcheries and shoot seals and you would make an impact on the Orcas immediately.  Unfortunately, this is more of an "environmental" move than something involving legitimate science.  As usual, never let a dying Orca on TV go to waste, pure political move.

[Fishmaker57]

Authorize the removal all you want, it won't happen in our lifetime. Congress gave approval to remove the Elwha Dam in 1978....and it took almost 40 years to get that done! This for a dam that generated no electricity, had no fish passage, didn't help control flooding, and didn't support barge traffic and all the wheat farmers in Idaho and SE Washington. As for the South Sound Orcas....evolution. Allow Harbor Seals and Sea Lions to grossly overpopulate and this is the result.

[trophyelk6x6]

There is only two ways to help, help orcas, help the economy, help tribes, help whitey's, help commercial, help and cure the issue...………………….SHOOT Pinnepeds and ramp up hatchery production  10x …..do it now your dumb sh....Washington state legislators   

[bigbullshedhunter]

Most the fish that return to the snake, salmon and clearwater rivers are a huge portion of the fish that move into the system and they have the farthest to go. Gill nets are wiping out our clearwater river fish which are known to be some of the biggest steelhead in the state. These fish travel thru the Columbia on there return anywhere from 10-20 ft. Right where the gill nets guyare sitting. The fish dnt have a problem with the dams. It's the manner that these fish are being taken. How are we suppose to build better stronger runs that will adapt year to year when only 40%% of the fish going into the Columbia are making it home. Only an average of 5-600 miles that they travel no big deal. And the whole being able to keep wild fish on lower parts of the river system is ridiculous.  Even after the fish have made it to there spawning grounds done there thing we still dnt get to keep wild fish that ppl hundreds of miles down river kept. Even the ones the hatchery returns to the river after they breed em. Idaho is the ones paying for all of it. And now we got a group out of Seattle shutting our fishery down today. What a joke. The guy I work for on the river is going to lose 20% of his income atleast. I honestly wish the whole west side of the state wld just break away and disappear.

[bigdave]

Pure and simple........ virtue signaling for the 2020 run for the presidency. God, I can't wait till he leaves.

[castie2504]

Best salmon documentary I’ve ran into. Gives a well rounded perspective of the many problems affecting salmon runs in the northwest. If you are a fisherman, it’s worth the time.

[WSU]

We could instantly increase available chinook by the hundreds of thousands.  All we'd have to do is stop harvesting 80% of the fish in Alaska and BC.  Sounds simple, right?

[JimmyHoffa]

We could instantly increase available chinook by the hundreds of thousands.  All we'd have to do is stop harvesting 80% of the fish in Alaska and BC.  Sounds simple, right?

My guess is that if you end up with a significant cutback in AK-BC, then fishing would be stopped here for non tribals.  I think seals/seal lions are probably the most immediate solution to provide for killer whales and fisherman.  Then do some number shuffling with AK-BC to get another 20% or more back down here.

[WSU]

We could instantly increase available chinook by the hundreds of thousands.  All we'd have to do is stop harvesting 80% of the fish in Alaska and BC.  Sounds simple, right?

My guess is that if you end up with a significant cutback in AK-BC, then fishing would be stopped here for non tribals.  I think seals/seal lions are probably the most immediate solution to provide for killer whales and fisherman.  Then do some number shuffling with AK-BC to get another 20% or more back down here.

Seal and sealions are not the most immediate.  Much of what they eat are smolts, which obviously take a few years to return.  Even if we stopped predation today, you'd see the results 3-5 years down the road.  We could stop harvesting this year's fish now.

And, why would washington have to stop harvesting washington fish if AK/BC laid off?  I can agree that the Washington ocean fishery would probably need to be curtailed to allow the orcas their shot at the fish, but terminal fisheries would be far improved. 

[KFhunter]

Dec 13, 2018 / Energy/Environment
MCMORRIS RODGERS, NEWHOUSE JOINT STATEMENT RESPONDING TO GOVERNOR INSLEE’S ANNOUNCEMENT OF TAXPAYER FUNDS TO CONSIDER BREACHING SNAKE RIVER DAMS
WASHINGTON, D.C. (December 13, 2018) — Today, Eastern Washington Congresswoman Cathy McMorris Rodgers (WA-05) and Rep. Dan Newhouse (WA-04) released the following joint statement on Washington Governor Jay Inslee’s proposed $750,000 in the state budget to support evaluation by a state task force of breaching the Lower Snake River dams:

“The people of Eastern Washington whose livelihoods depend on these dams should not be collateral damage for anyone’s presidential ambitions. The Governor does not have the authority to breach our federal dams on the Lower Snake River, and allocating state taxpayers’ funds to consider breaching them would be wasteful. Congress has the sole authority to authorize breaching our federal dams, and as representatives of Eastern Washington communities that depend on the many benefits they provide, breaching them is out of the question. We commit to do everything in our power to save our dams.”

# # #

[WSU]

I'm generally in favor of breaching the dams, partly because they are outdated and will cost more to maintain than they produce.  Updating them makes the equation even worse.  Other than barge traffic, they really don't produce much benefit.

[JimmyHoffa]

We could instantly increase available chinook by the hundreds of thousands.  All we'd have to do is stop harvesting 80% of the fish in Alaska and BC.  Sounds simple, right?

My guess is that if you end up with a significant cutback in AK-BC, then fishing would be stopped here for non tribals.  I think seals/seal lions are probably the most immediate solution to provide for killer whales and fisherman.  Then do some number shuffling with AK-BC to get another 20% or more back down here.

Seal and sealions are not the most immediate.  Much of what they eat are smolts, which obviously take a few years to return.  Even if we stopped predation today, you'd see the results 3-5 years down the road.  We could stop harvesting this year's fish now.

And, why would washington have to stop harvesting washington fish if AK/BC laid off?  I can agree that the Washington ocean fishery would probably need to be curtailed to allow the orcas their shot at the fish, but terminal fisheries would be far improved.

I think most of the seafood companies, boat owners, captains, etc that operate in Alaska commercially are from Washington.  If they are going to take some hits, the politicians they've bought (especially in this state) will take more action to ensure their economic survival which would likely involve a major trimming of local fishing.  Politics not biological sense.  Anything that makes it to freshwater isn't really of any concern to puget sound killer whales (in the immediate sense).

[bigdave]

Good luck replacing them with coal fired on Reactor power



The high cost of tearing down the Snake River Dams
By TODD MYERS  |  POLICY NOTES Mar 21, 2017   
 Download file Download the full Policy Note.

Key Findings

The Snake River Dams provide about eight percent of the state of Washington’s electricity, an amount equivalent to all wind and solar production throughout Washington state.
The annual average value of electricity created from the Snake River Dams is 8.37 million megawatt hours with a value of $293.1 million.
To replace the Snake River Dams, the estimated cost per year would be $153.9 million more for a natural gas replacement and $162.2 million more for wind electricity.
Since replacements for hydro cost more, without the Snake River Dams, it would cost millions more to reduce carbon from natural gas or wind.

[jstone]

Just another money grab. This governors favorite word is Just a Billion

Clown needs to go!!

[KFhunter]

I'm generally in favor of breaching the dams, partly because they are outdated and will cost more to maintain than they produce.  Updating them makes the equation even worse.  Other than barge traffic, they really don't produce much benefit.

Well that is an interesting point, I had no idea that the cost of maintaining the dams is greater than their production of energy. 

If we loose that 8% of all Washington's electrical output (for just one dam on the snake) will that drive energy costs high enough that the maintenance of that dam would have been more cost effective? 

If we breech all of the dams...will that huge amount of loss of electrical output, and subsequent rise in electrical costs per household (subsidized for low income of course) have been worth the maintenance of the dams?

Is there a cost breakdown of this somewhere?  Hopefully a cost breakdown with projections should the dams be breached.... It seems like the success of the dams may be its own undoing?

[singleshot12]

Best salmon documentary I’ve ran into. Gives a well rounded perspective of the many problems affecting salmon runs in the northwest. If you are a fisherman, it’s worth the time.

Great show! But what NGEO didn't emphasize is the no.1 impact gill nets made in China have had on the salmon runs in the last 1/2+ century.

The elimination of nets strung across river mouths go hand in hand with tearing down dams and improving habitat.

 

[Skyvalhunter]

 

[singleshot12]

I'm generally in favor of breaching the dams, partly because they are outdated and will cost more to maintain than they produce.  Updating them makes the equation even worse.  Other than barge traffic, they really don't produce much benefit.

Well that is an interesting point, I had no idea that the cost of maintaining the dams is greater than their production of energy. 

If we loose that 8% of all Washington's electrical output (for just one dam on the snake) will that drive energy costs high enough that the maintenance of that dam would have been more cost effective? 

If we breech all of the dams...will that huge amount of loss of electrical output, and subsequent rise in electrical costs per household (subsidized for low income of course) have been worth the maintenance of the dams?

Is there a cost breakdown of this somewhere?  Hopefully a cost breakdown with projections should the dams be breached.... It seems like the success of the dams may be its own undoing?

Wind Power is the future and could easily replace the dams, but I'm sure the enviro's are looking at ways to put a wedge in that too.

[KFhunter]

but then eventually we'll have to tear down the windmills as they slaughter endangered migratory birds

[singleshot12]

Might be a little harder for them to prove than the dams tho.

[KFhunter]

Plasma reactors are our future.  Not wind, not solar, not hydro, not coal, not oil...plasma fusion reactors. 

you heard it from me first.


https://www.iter.org/

[singleshot12]

Will see if it sticks first before I buy any stock

[Huntin Hounds]

The way it has been explained to me is the lower snake river dams are the backup generators for the NW. When another power plant goes down they pickup the slack and also help during high usage times like when it's really hot or cold and people are cranking the AC or heat. If you take them out you have to replace their output capabilities. Wind and solar are not reliable enough so they are out of the question. That leaves coal, natural gas, nuclear or hydro as the only options to replace them. We aren't building anymore dams and good luck building another coal or natural gas plant. That leaves nuclear and who wants one of those in their back yard.
Hydro is currently the best crappy option for backup power production. It can begin producing power in minutes unlike days with the other options. I read a study several years ago about the effects of wind power on bat populations and other birds. They kill lots! With the amount of habitat they take up and the small amount of electricity they produce, they are just not worth the resources.
If we were serious about bringing back more salmon we would be studying reestablishing runs to the Spokane river. The biggest obstacle would be getting smolts through lake roosevelt. The state could do some testing by releasing smolts at Spokane falls with tags and seeing how many make it to Bonneville. If it makes sense put in ladders on Chief Joseph, GC, little falls, long lake and 9 mile dams. Let's try some other options before we go spending $20B on dam removal.

[Dslayer]

House cats kill more birds than wind turbines.

https://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/north-america-wind-turbines-kill-around-300000-birds-annually-house-cats-around-3000000000.html

[Mudman]

None of it matters, its just politics.  10 salmon or 10 million they still will be eaten by sea lions and caught in nets.

[HntnFsh]

I'm generally in favor of breaching the dams, partly because they are outdated and will cost more to maintain than they produce.  Updating them makes the equation even worse.  Other than barge traffic, they really don't produce much benefit.

Well that is an interesting point, I had no idea that the cost of maintaining the dams is greater than their production of energy. 

If we loose that 8% of all Washington's electrical output (for just one dam on the snake) will that drive energy costs high enough that the maintenance of that dam would have been more cost effective? 

If we breech all of the dams...will that huge amount of loss of electrical output, and subsequent rise in electrical costs per household (subsidized for low income of course) have been worth the maintenance of the dams?

Is there a cost breakdown of this somewhere?  Hopefully a cost breakdown with projections should the dams be breached.... It seems like the success of the dams may be its own undoing?

Wind Power is the future and could easily replace the dams, but I'm sure the enviro's are looking at ways to put a wedge in that too.

Really, how are they going to do that? Wind mills has to have wind to work. Do you know a way to make the wind blow when you want it to. Because that's what it would take for wind power to over take hydro. Until there is a feasible way to bank the wind power generated until its needed. That's not available yet and I don't see it happening for a long time. Windmills are very inefficient, very expensive, and unreliable. With no hydro to kick in on demand we would all be dealing with rolling brown outs, black outs and extremely high power rates. The only thing that wind and solar have going for them is the subsidies they get to operate. If they didn't get subsidies you wouldnt want to pay for the electricity that comes from them. I'll have to see if I can find a recent report on cost per MWH but hydros were a fraction of wind and solar just a few years ago..

The other thing with hydros is the irrigation. Could you imagine the cost of food etc. if it weren't for the water storage that is used for irrigation. No irrigation water from wind power.

There is a lot not to like about hydro, but I don't think most people realize the changes in lifestyle they would have to make if it weren't for hydros, or dams in general.

[WSU]

Lower snake  dams don’t provide much (perhaps any?) irrigation.

I’ve also read that the price of bpa power won’t be competitive once the current contracts are up. Market price is significantly cheaper now. I’ll see if I can google up an article when I’m at a computer.

[KFhunter]

How about we all read what these dams do



The lower Snake River dams are equipped with the most advanced fish passage systems in the world.
https://www.nww.usace.army.mil/Missions/Lower-Snake-River-Dams/

The Snake River is the principal tributary to the Columbia River, draining approximately 107,000 square miles in Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Wyoming, Utah and Nevada. In the 1960s and early 1970s, the federal government built four large dams on the Snake River: Ice Harbor, Lower Monumental, Little Goose, and Lower Granite.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' Walla Walla District owns and operates the four lower Snake River dams, all of which are multiple-use facilities that provide navigation, hydropower, recreation, and fish and wildlife conservation benefits.

Because of their locations, size and ability to help meet peak power loads, these four dams do much more than generate energy--they are key to keeping the system reliable and helping to meet its multiple uses — including supporting wind energy. The Snake River dams lie east of the other federal generators, so they provide a significant technical contribution to transmission grid reliability.

The Lower Snake River system of locks and dams deliver a significant economic benefit to the nation. Barging on the inland Columbia Snake River System moves, on average, approximately 10 million tons of cargo valued at over $3 billion each year. Forty percent of the Nation’s wheat transits through this system.



Current Fish Passage at the Lower Snake River Projects
The four lower Snake River dams were designed with features to aid the migration of both juvenile and adult fish. In the last 25 years, the Corps has consistently investigated and adopted new technologies for maximizing the survival of juvenile and adult fish.

Juvenile fish survival past the dams has increased through extensive dam modifications, such as surface passage, juvenile bypass systems, and more effective and efficient spill operations. Through their turbine improvement program, the Corps of Engineers has made improvements to turbine design and modified operations to improve fish survival through the turbines.

For adult fish returning from the Pacific Ocean to spawn, fish ladders and devices to attract fish to the entrances of the ladders are the primary aid to their passing the dams. Fish ladders have been in place since the dams were built in the 1960s and early 1970s. Improvements to these ladders have been made at all four dams.

Overall, these improvements are making a positive impact on salmon and steelhead returns.

[WSU]

They have improved from the past but still result in huge mortality because they turn hundreds of miles of river into a series of lakes.

[HntnFsh]

My apologies to all. I didn't process that these were Snake river dams being talked about. I was thinking dams as a whole. A lot of what I had to say was irrelevant!

[nwwanderer]

Some of the earliest cherries in the state are grown with Snake water, not a huge number of acres but $ wise a bunch.

[ASHQUACK]

Spotted owl of the salt water.

[WSU]

How about we all read what these dams do



The lower Snake River dams are equipped with the most advanced fish passage systems in the world.
https://www.nww.usace.army.mil/Missions/Lower-Snake-River-Dams/

The Snake River is the principal tributary to the Columbia River, draining approximately 107,000 square miles in Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Wyoming, Utah and Nevada. In the 1960s and early 1970s, the federal government built four large dams on the Snake River: Ice Harbor, Lower Monumental, Little Goose, and Lower Granite.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' Walla Walla District owns and operates the four lower Snake River dams, all of which are multiple-use facilities that provide navigation, hydropower, recreation, and fish and wildlife conservation benefits.

Because of their locations, size and ability to help meet peak power loads, these four dams do much more than generate energy--they are key to keeping the system reliable and helping to meet its multiple uses — including supporting wind energy. The Snake River dams lie east of the other federal generators, so they provide a significant technical contribution to transmission grid reliability.

The Lower Snake River system of locks and dams deliver a significant economic benefit to the nation. Barging on the inland Columbia Snake River System moves, on average, approximately 10 million tons of cargo valued at over $3 billion each year. Forty percent of the Nation’s wheat transits through this system.



Current Fish Passage at the Lower Snake River Projects
The four lower Snake River dams were designed with features to aid the migration of both juvenile and adult fish. In the last 25 years, the Corps has consistently investigated and adopted new technologies for maximizing the survival of juvenile and adult fish.

Juvenile fish survival past the dams has increased through extensive dam modifications, such as surface passage, juvenile bypass systems, and more effective and efficient spill operations. Through their turbine improvement program, the Corps of Engineers has made improvements to turbine design and modified operations to improve fish survival through the turbines.

For adult fish returning from the Pacific Ocean to spawn, fish ladders and devices to attract fish to the entrances of the ladders are the primary aid to their passing the dams. Fish ladders have been in place since the dams were built in the 1960s and early 1970s. Improvements to these ladders have been made at all four dams.

Overall, these improvements are making a positive impact on salmon and steelhead returns.

I ran across this on another board: http://www.cbbulletin.com/439683.aspx

The takeaway is that survival through the various snake river dams is roughly 91% (9% die per dam) and lower at other dams.  Total survival through the dams in 2017 was 47.8%.  Lots die from the dam itself and lots die from predators in the now hundreds of miles long lake that used to be a river.

[Stein]

You guys are crazy, as long as we throw money at runoff water and pass a carbon tax the orcas will quickly rebound.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WSU]

You guys are crazy, as long as we throw money at runoff water and pass a carbon tax the orcas will quickly rebound.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don’t forget we have to convert 2 ferries to electric.

[Bullkllr]

You guys are crazy, as long as we throw money at runoff water and pass a carbon tax the orcas will quickly rebound.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don’t forget we have to convert 2 ferries to electric.

Runoff water is a huge impact, esp. in the Sound. Every time it rains heavy there are streams that get lethally toxic- and it all goes downstream- only question to me is what would it take exactly to fix enough of it to make a real positive impact.

[JimmyHoffa]

One of the big problems as I understand it, is the competition for forage out there (especially in the Gulf of Alaska).  Alaska has a huge hatchery pink program that is supposedly consuming a crazy amount of the salmon food.  So.....with ocean feed limited, if you send a bunch more Snake river (Columbia system) chinook out to sea, then you have Puget Sound chinook being outcompeted.  Result being that fewer chinook would return to Puget Sound, and the killer whales will have even less to eat.  So, removing the snake dams would be detrimental to Puget Sound whales.  Anyone else hear anything similar to this?

[HntnFsh]

You guys are crazy, as long as we throw money at runoff water and pass a carbon tax the orcas will quickly rebound.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don’t forget we have to convert 2 ferries to electric.

Runoff water is a huge impact, esp. in the Sound. Every time it rains heavy there are streams that get lethally toxic- and it all goes downstream- only question to me is what would it take exactly to fix enough of it to make a real positive impact.

Add Vancouver dumping millions of gallons of untreated sewage a ways to the north a day I cant imagine that helps either.

[Jpmiller]

You guys are crazy, as long as we throw money at runoff water and pass a carbon tax the orcas will quickly rebound.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don’t forget we have to convert 2 ferries to electric.

Runoff water is a huge impact, esp. in the Sound. Every time it rains heavy there are streams that get lethally toxic- and it all goes downstream- only question to me is what would it take exactly to fix enough of it to make a real positive impact.

Add Vancouver dumping millions of gallons of untreated sewage a ways to the north a day I cant imagine that helps either.

Or Seattle....

[fishngamereaper]

"Accidental" power outage at Minter crk hatchery causing the loss of 6.2 millon Chinook fry won't help....this states incompetence is amazing.

[Sandberm]

Lower snake  dams don’t provide much (perhaps any?) irrigation.

I’ve also read that the price of bpa power won’t be competitive once the current contracts are up. Market price is significantly cheaper now. I’ll see if I can google up an article when I’m at a computer.

http://www.csria.org/

Drive out of Pasco on either the Kahlotus highway on the North side of the Snake or Hwy 124 on the south side. LOTS of water being pumped out of the Snake to farm thousands of acres of land. Broetjes orchards on the Walla Walla county(south) side have thousands of acres of orchards and are some of the most generous people you could meet, providing housing and a step up to lots of immigrant families.

If you take out the dams the sediment flow would be terrible and would ruin the irrigation pumps. Millions of bushels of wheat would have to be trucked rather than barged down the river. Fuel, which is barged up the river before bringing wheat down would have to be trucked up river.

[Sandberm]

And to add to the anecdotal evidence...

A few years back I shot a round at a 3d archery shoot with a gentleman  who worked for the Bonneville Power Administration. I questioned him about the relationship between the dams and the wind turbines. He told me that weather models have gotten so good at predicting when the wind would blow that they are able to, in essence, turn the dams off and turn the wind turbines on with great efficiency.

However, wind turbines are NOT a replacement for dams, they just compliment them.

[7mmfan]

One of the big problems as I understand it, is the competition for forage out there (especially in the Gulf of Alaska).  Alaska has a huge hatchery pink program that is supposedly consuming a crazy amount of the salmon food.  So.....with ocean feed limited, if you send a bunch more Snake river (Columbia system) chinook out to sea, then you have Puget Sound chinook being outcompeted.  Result being that fewer chinook would return to Puget Sound, and the killer whales will have even less to eat.  So, removing the snake dams would be detrimental to Puget Sound whales.  Anyone else hear anything similar to this?

Ocean conditions play more of a roll in food availability than actual competition amongst salmon species. Even at elevated hatchery production levels there is nowhere near the biomass of salmon in the ocean today that there was historically. The biggest threat to young chinook salmon in the Gulf is Pollock trawlers. Mile long nets scoop up everything in their path, including entire schools of juvenile chinook. If you want to hear horror stories about nets being pulled up that have more chinook in them than Pollock, head to AK and talk to some trawlers.

[WSU]

Wild Fish Conservancy and the Center for Biologic Diversity just sent NOAA a notice of intent to sue.  The threatened lawsuit is based on NOAA conducting ocean fisheries that remove a large percentage of the orca's food.  Basically, with the knowledge we have now, NOAA permitting the harvest of the orca's food is allegedly illegal under the ESA.