Another Mule deer study

[hunter399]

I do like to hear study's are going on.
How long does it take to figure out migration routes.
How long does it take to figure out depredation pattern.
Will we have answers 25 years from now when the last 10 deer are standing. Seems to me WDFW do these study's when they really don't want to deal with the problem.
Its like biden starting a committy or something.
You just pour money and talking at something with little results.

[Rainier10]

You nailed it Wyoming Karl, not only are they ahead by gathering migration routes they aren’t as developed or densely populated as Washington so they have a way better chance of keeping those vital corridors open.


Sandberm the all mighty dollar is powerful. Green energy pays well compared to open sage and property taxes. Everyone wants a little piece of paradise to put a cabin or trailer on. My land value has doubled in the past two years for recreational use. I’m not selling. It puts extra pressure on the migrating deer and the local deer. They need a place to be secure. We do allow hunting on our place for kids, seniors and we have done wounded warrior hunts. We can control the harvest that way while giving the wildlife some space.

[hunter399]

You nailed it Wyoming Karl, not only are they ahead by gathering migration routes they aren’t as developed or densely populated as Washington so they have a way better chance of keeping those vital corridors open.


Sandberm the all mighty dollar is powerful. Green energy pays well compared to open sage and property taxes. Everyone wants a little piece of paradise to put a cabin or trailer on. My land value has doubled in the past two years for recreational use. I’m not selling. It puts extra pressure on the migrating deer and the local deer. They need a place to be secure. We do allow hunting on our place for kids, seniors and we have done wounded warrior hunts. We can control the harvest that way while giving the wildlife some space.

Even though most of my comments have some kind of negative to them.
I will say good for you,keep up the good fight there ,sounds like you got a good patch of Washington.

[Rainier10]

The frustration about these studies is real and valid. Sportsmen with boots on the ground see what’s happening but there are very few of us. It’s the non hunters that need to be convinced and that is why the studies need to be done to have proof for those that aren’t out in the woods.

The reason they take so long is the variables, weather, fires, development and hunting pressure all play a role and those things change year to year.

In 2014 I had 4-600 elk wintering on and adjacent to my ground. 2015 was the fire, they moved and we had maybe 30. Each year since the fire we have seen increased numbers as the habitat rebounds. We aren’t back to the numbers we had before the fire but we are getting there. A study of deer in 2016 would have completely different results than a study this year.

[Rainier10]

Most of my neighbors are cattlemen, they are not open to the study because they have concerns the results may impact their livelyhood.  That is a valid concern.  This study and results can be used in many ways.  A half glass of water is a half glass of water but there are those that will argue it is half full and others that will argue it is half empty even though it is the same glass of water.

I just want them to have the most accurate numbers then the arguments can begin on how to interpret that information.

My hope is that they learn what the corridor is and then use their limited funds to buy that land and keep it undeveloped for the deer to use.  I also hope that they learn that predators are having a huge impact on ungulates and work to decrease those predator numbers.

There is a chance that someone will argue that predators are struggling to survive because of low ungulate numbers and they limit hunting opportunity to give the predators more of the annual harvest.

There is also a chance that they determine that cattle grazing in the corridor is impacting food available for ungulates and regulate the grazing industry more by limiting access to that corridor or even putting restrictions on private land use within that corridor.

It is important no matter what side you are on to follow these studies and make your argument for your point of view.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease and when there are so many players with stakes in the game you have to squeak loud and often.

[jstone]

First off awesome Rainier10.
Should they not already have the migration corridors in documented history?
I have hunted the Swakane forever!!!! That is a good example of bad management up on those hills. Houses creeping higher and higher into their wintering grounds.
Not sure about the cat count in that area? Haven’t seen cat tracks for a while. Lots of yotes! These Bio’s just get a college education and think they know it all. Go out there and live it.!! Experience the out doors and the animals. Talk and listen to the hunters. Hunters are the knowledge of the woods. Well some are!!

Great topic

[Rainier10]

I am not sure they do have information on this area, this is a small study area for this survey, hiway 97 to vantage north of I 90.

Swakane is a prime example of a ton of issues.  A whole new thread could be started for that but I think what would apply to this thread is we don't want to make those same mistakes with the naneum deer.

One of the sections that I bought in the winter grounds used to be DNR land, perfect for wildlife, never going to be developed.  Then in  2008 the rocky mountain elk foundation worked out a land swap with the DNR to consolidate their land into a larger block by trading dnr land outside of the large block for private land inside the large block.  What they got was a huge block of DNR that was open to all hunters what they lost was important pieces like the one I bought. I went to a timber company first in the land swap and after they logged it they put it up for sale and I bought it.

Hopefully after this study the WDFW will be able to recognize land that is used as the corridor and be able to buy it up.  Luckily I bought the section and have no plans to develop it but it could have just as easily been purchased by someone who wanted to build houses, break it up into 20 acre recreational properties, turned the whole thing into an RV, ATV, UTV, ORV park or put solar panels on it since it is also in the Kittitas Solar overlay area.  All of those generate money for the developer and for the county in tax revenue and all kinds of other revenue streams from gas to groceries and food services.

Everyone wants to make a buck and in the end it's the wildlife that suffers.

[idahohuntr]

Well here we go with another study. Funny how the WDFW always blames habitat loss and fires as the decline in mule deer population. Not one mention of predators.
http://www.ifiberone.com/columbia_basin/helicopters-to-capture-mule-deer-in-chelan-kittitas-and-okanogan-counties-in-mid-january/article_86740132-4eeb-11eb-a09d-23bad7ae6b2e.html

Based on the 16 billion hunting forum posts from people asking what rural western state/area is the best place to move - I would put habitat loss/degradation from a booming human population as something that ought to terrify any mule deer hunter.  Whether the east slope of the Cascades, the Boise foothills, the Colorado front range...Habitat loss/degradation is orders of magnitude more concerning for long term declines and future lost opportunity for mule deer hunting.  Make no mistake though...there are a lot of economic interests from many different industries that would prefer hunters focus on non-habitat factors. 

[Ridgerunner]

While I agree with the study and think it will provide some interesting data, I feel that it is probably at least 40-50 years too late.  I fear the habitat loss, predator issues etc, have capped the carrying capacity of the range to a much lower number than it would have otherwise been if the state had been more proactive decades ago.  I'd still like my kids to be able to see some deer when we go out, but it would have been better at the higher numbers.  I remember in the early 90's when I first started hunting how many deer there were, how I wish I knew what I was doing back then instead of being a wet behind the ears teenager trying to figure things out. 

I applaud the actions Rainer is taking, he's got some real skin in the game. 

[bearhunter99]

First off. Thank you KF for that timeline.  I guess I had just never considered the timing of other aspects and especially this year the winter has been mild enough so far.

AND thank you for the information Rainier and for the stewardship.  It gets tougher for the deer every year and habitat loss, especially wintering grounds is a huge part of the equation.  I hate the Chelan Douglas Land Trust and all of its hippies and idiots that use the land and think everything should be public but it does provide some much needed protected wintering range.

You learn something new every day!

[actionshooter]

I was contacted by the WDFW this weekend about the study.  It is similar to the one they did last year on my place where they netted deer with helicopter gunners, ear tagged them and put collars on them.  I own winter range and they are looking to see where the migration corridors are for the deer.  He said the deer from last year had a pretty high mortality rate and some of the kills could be pinned directly on predators.  The collars give location updates every four hours.  If a collar doesn't move for 8 or 12 hours they send a bio to see what happened and why the deer isn't moving.  With rapid response they can see if it was a predator kill, poaching or natural causes.  I told the bio I had at least 200 deer on my place and they were doing very well.  I have seen more does with twins in December than I have since the fire in 2015.  I have shot 7 coyotes on my place this year in an effort to control the predation of fawns.  He said that just a couple canyons over from me they found a collared doe the week before that had been killed by a cougar.  Last year the first month after the collars went on a doe ended up dead in a creek bed adjacent to my property.  They thought it might have been a cougar kill but the coyotes had gotten to it also so it was tough to tell.  There was a collared wolf in the area but the deer collar and wolf collar were not in close proximity at any point.  The wolf was old and had left the pack, it has since died.

I think WDFW knows predators are a problem but they are having difficulties getting quotas increased when our beloved governor keeps rejecting their proposals to increase quotas.

WOW! Thanks Rainier... that is awesome and I am glad there are people who are looking out for the wildlands!

[Boss .300 winmag]

If the state doesn’t know the migration routes by now, they will never know them.😉

[jstone]

 

[Rainier10]

Well here we go with another study. Funny how the WDFW always blames habitat loss and fires as the decline in mule deer population. Not one mention of predators.
http://www.ifiberone.com/columbia_basin/helicopters-to-capture-mule-deer-in-chelan-kittitas-and-okanogan-counties-in-mid-january/article_86740132-4eeb-11eb-a09d-23bad7ae6b2e.html

Based on the 16 billion hunting forum posts from people asking what rural western state/area is the best place to move - I would put habitat loss/degradation from a booming human population as something that ought to terrify any mule deer hunter.  Whether the east slope of the Cascades, the Boise foothills, the Colorado front range...Habitat loss/degradation is orders of magnitude more concerning for long term declines and future lost opportunity for mule deer hunting.  Make no mistake though...there are a lot of economic interests from many different industries that would prefer hunters focus on non-habitat factors. 

Habitat loss is huge where I am.  I bought 20 acres there 20 years ago.  It is a township with a homeowners association.  There are 180 20 acre lots.  They were sold in the 70's to military guys mostly, "own a piece of washington".  Most didn't ever use the property it was a $6,000 investment that they forgot about.  That 3,600 acres was great habitat and it still is except for the fact that those lots have sold and now instead of 8 or 9 people using those 3,600 acres there are 100 active property owners bringing 3 hunting buddies with them spreading out over archery, muzzy and modern hunting seasons.  Most get a multiseason permit so they can hunt all season.  When they are hunting they are driving there quads and side by sides around scouting.  There are roads everywhere so you can get to all 180 of the lots.  That habitat while good is not preferred by the deer and elk because there is no escapement, no where to hide there is always someone chasing them to hunt them or get their shed antlers.

This area is in the colockum, one year during modern firearm there were 13 spikes and 4 cows(cow permits) shot in one day.  It was a slaughter.  The herds got pushed out of the NF and down into the private where every guy and his hunting buddies were ready for them.  I haven't seen that many spikes in the area at any time since then.  That was about 15 years ago.

Habitat isn't so great when there are 200 guys hunting a 4 square mile area.

[Wunderlich33]

When I grow up I wanna be like Rainier10!!! Thanks for your dedication!!! 
I just gotta grow up... My wife tells me that all the time...