Lesson from 07 raffle deer hunt

[fremont]

I'm only half-kidding when I say we should all chip in $20 or so for a Political Action Committee (PAC) or lobbyist to take some of these sensible ideas to Olympia.  And, yeah, this site is being seen by employees of WDFW, many of whom undoubtedly agree.  Good work, guys; keep rattlin' their cages!   

[nwhunter]

I agree with Bone on the beginning of the end being the year of the early snow and all the bucks that were killed during the regular rifle season that year. It was the first year that the entiat went to a draw for archery and we didn't draw so were hunting the swakane. We stopped in at the store in ardenvoir to look at the picture board and were amazed/appalled at the big bucks that had been taken and the dates were reg season not the late tag holders. I'm sure the late tag holders also got their share and the archers too and we will never recover from that without cutting back. Even one year without any late tags for any weapon would make a difference and then cut the tags way back would get us started in the right direction. I'm glad that most guys on here are in agreement and would support change to make this unit better. I don't understand the snowmobiles going everywhere when we were told you can't even ride a quad on the main gravel roads let alone a skid road over there? When we were up in the twisp country I remember seeing a gate on a main road system that the sign said it was closed every winter to protect the migrating deer in that area, why not put up some of those on every main gravel road? nwhunter

[spin05]

nwhunter has a good point.Why cant it be managed like the okanagan???I to have hunted the entiat since about 2001 for archery.Ive never shot a deer yet but i had some quality days of chaseing bucks all day long.I never saw no 180 class bucks.Lots and lots of 20-25in 3-5 pointers.I never saw another hunter in the general late season enless it was on the road.I had 6points and got drawn the 1st year it went to permit only.There were guys everywere ans no deer due to the lack of snow.In the prevous 3 years i think i only saw maybe 5 nice bucks killed.But i dont hang out on the road either and thats were i saw them on my way back to the truck.I almost shot a spike with my permit it was so bad.I still like the idea of taking like 5 units and rotating them every couple or 5 years and then close them down for 5 years.There is no reason there should not be a late archery permit over in the methow for a prime example.......

[dbllunger]

Lesson to learn...Steve Dauma (Retired Captain out of Moses Lake/Ephrata) told me those who create the most noise will get what they want.  He told me if there were enough people focused and screaming the state would listen.  It was not totally about numbers but about contiual and concentrated requests.   He told me the falcon hunters or what ever they are called pushed a lot of things through because they were at every meeting with the same request.  Not only regional meetings but the meetings held in Olympia including the regular politicians/ass kissers/oops board/commission meetings.

[bobcat]

I don't understand the snowmobiles going everywhere when we were told you can't even ride a quad on the main gravel roads let alone a skid road over there?

Great point....I totally agree.

[Geno]

I don't understand the snowmobiles going everywhere when we were told you can't even ride a quad on the main gravel roads let alone a skid road over there? When we were up in the twisp country I remember seeing a gate on a main road system that the sign said it was closed every winter to protect the migrating deer in that area, why not put up some of those on every main gravel road? nwhunter

Snowmobiles fall under different rules than wheeled machines. The road system in the Entiat/Swakane/Chiwawa extends all the way over to Fish Lake/Lake Wenatchee area which is a very popular snowmobiling area. You can launch at Fish Lake, ride to the cafe at Ardenvoir to have lunch and ride back. Lots of people do it, most are not riding around chasing deer. You would need lots of gates to change things. They should stop the guys that are down in the wintering areas with snow machines, they are up to no good. I'm not trying to defend anyone here, I'm just saying that gating off all of the roads in those areas would be nearly impossible (with the exception of the Mule deer wintering areas).

[rougheye]

I live by Elk heights in Cleelum and if I take my sled across the freeway I can only take the high rode .THe lower road is posted for wintering dee and elk.Big fines if you get caught in there.I dont know why they cant do something like that.When I took 300 weatherby on my sleds in the Entiat that was the first time I had ever used them for huntingand I have to say I was blown away at the deers response.I saw deer running from 600 yards away like someone was actually shooting at them. For them to run like that inn 2 feet of snow and burn all that energy I felt like I was hurting the population and alot of these guys are out there every day.I think they need to do a better job managing the permit hunters .There is stilla ton of deer in there just not near as many big mature bucks

[SuperDave]

Does anyone know when the next season setting periods are?  I agree, squeeky wheel gets the grease! 

[boneaddict]

dbllunger   Your friend is very observant. Last years winter was very hard even with average snow depths.  VERY early heavy snows and then a warmup and then rains created a horrible crust and icy conditions.  Again, this may be the Methow and not the Entiat.  I notice that Wenatchee has much warmer temps than up North.  This crust made it nearly impossible  for the deer to move around accept in established trails.  It made it VERY dfficult for the animals to get theri food, extra effort for pawing etc, and...the worst part, coyotes and dogs were able to travel very well on the crust and killed at will.   Up until now, the deep snow in the Methow has been powder, and the deer have had it fairly easy.  The rains coming in this weekend may change all that, but at least its deeper into the winter than last year. 

[boneaddict]

PROBLEMS

You have to be careful when we start eliminating a user group, such as saying no more snowmobiles on state land, which has happened all around Yakima, and much of the Methow.  Its like saying no more horseback riding in the wilderness or stuff like that.  It is Public land.  We all do pay taxes on it, we are going to have a huge tract of land pretty soon where you can't walk on it until May 1st such as all of the elk closures to keep the shedders at bay.  That hits at the mushroom pickers, the flower sniffers, the bird watchers, the rock enthusiasts, etc.   Also mindful that the gates close Dec1st around here.  That means 300 would have saved alot of gas money, and probably would be buying new boots about now.   Not disagrreing with access issues, just making sure everyone sees some other points as well.

[Lowedog]

A few points to consider here.

As far as closing the area to snowmobiles.  Only the USFS can do that.  We can call and voice our concernes.  I have heard that there is already some consideration of doing so and concerned hunters letting them know that we feel it should be done will help. 

Someone pointed out that the squeeky wheel gets the grease.  Hunters all over the nation are more and more looking towards quality trophy hunts.  Here in WA with the number of hunters wanting more chances at drawing a "trophy" tag the dept is giving us what we want.  In return the quality has gone down.  The archery guys pushed for years for the Entiat to open back up for them on the late season.  Well they got what they wanted and it has hurt the quality.  The rifle guys want more oppurtunity to draw a late tag and more tags are issued.  65 this last season I believe.  You put 65 guys in there in Nov rifle hunting and the success rate will be real high.  Only a few of those people will hold out for a real monster.  Most will shoot the first 4 point they see.  Some will hold out for a little while and come across a 22-24" buck that would potentialy be a real monster in a couple years.  With those young bucks getting killed before they reach maturity the quality suffers.  After several years of this you get what we have now. 

The 9 day season contributes to the lower quality.  With a 14 day season it spread people out a bit.  Now you cram all those hunters into 9 days and everyone is out on opening day.  The success rate isn't any higher, probably lower for the season but on opening day I'll bet it's higher.  The majority of the best bucks I know of that were killed this year were killed on opening day of general season.  More eyes in the field on opening day equals big bucks maybe with there guard down a bit and a better chance of being seen and shot.  The general season is a difficult situation.  The majority of WA hunters want the opportunity to hunt every year and don't care about quality. 

Three point minimum has contributed.  I am seeing more and more geneticaly inferior bucks make it into maturity and they are breeding does and leaving less does for the superior bucks to breed thus watering down the gene pool.  I believe soomeone hit on this earlier. 

The 3 point minimum also increases hunting pressure on quality animals by increasing the days afield per kill.  Guys who would take any buck are hunting untill they find a legal buck and a lot of times that is a buck that has potential to be a real trophy or already is.  I see and hear of mature bucks also that are not legal to shoot.  Those bucks need to be removed from the mix.  Maybe issue tags for the general season that are any buck tags for youth and seniors or for whoever want to apply? 

Sorry for the long winded response but some points I wanted to make.

I like the idea of this group of hunters banding together to be a voice heard by the state on our concerns.

-Lowedog

[lemondog]

Lowedog.....I believe you are dead on......My view for the "Big Picture" is that WA should be completly changed in how it is managed for big game. It would not be very popular to many but could be very succesful. There are just to many people to give oppurtunity to everyone every year. This will sound radical but I think that we should go to a all user draw system. Build the Elk and Deer herds up to "world class" and generate enough $$$$ for the Department with a small % of quality tags going to out of state applicants. You could also do some landowner incentives for habitat improvment and increase bird hunting oppurtunites accross the state to offset some of the loss of field time. This ain't the "60's anymore. Those of you that apply for Colorado, Neveda and Arizona will know what I am talking about. I will take 7 or 8 years to make a full change. What you would find is that you would not be able to hunt every year but people would team up with a guy with a good tag and have a quality outdoor experience. Heck, most general season guys end up not seeing antlers and just camping anyway! The amout of money that out of staters would spend to try to draw what we could produce would suprise many. There may be less hunters overall but when you expand the market accross the country and you have the game there are thousands of people willing to spend a fair amount to draw a great tag. We could develop a really cool place if we could get some eyes opened. Time for change......

[ICEMAN]

Agree.

Here is a thought. (Maybe a stupid one...) How about some tags in these areas specifically for culling out some of the fully grown, 2x2's..... In Chiwawa, I know of one deer that has been around for years, an absolutely huge 2x2 muley.  We all have run into him a few times, and he is left to breed....  This idea would be to reduce the amount of another tag, and pick up this new tag, so that the general population of deer would benefit. Make sense? .... Someone help me here....

[Guy]

Iceman - I could support some kind of special 2-point hunt. Not sure how it would work, but yes, I've been seeing some BIG 2-point mulies, that likely need to be harvested, so we can get back to growing our beloved 4x4's.

How about all of us die-hard mule deer hunters making an equal effort to get out sometime this winter and zap a few coyotes or fill that cougar tag?

Many good thoughts on this thread. Like anyone else - I'd love to see more of the Big Bucks Washington can produce.

Regards, Guy

[dbllunger]

All of you guys have great ideas.  You need to email everyone at WDFW and I mean everyone.  Make every meeting you can and voice the same opinions.  Call the biologists and their bosses.  Harass the living *censored* out of them.  We need more people then just a few.  They pretty much just ignore me as soon as I give them my name anymore.  I often don't even get a reply back to my emails anymore where I always got a reply (non-automated) several years ago.  I even re-type them every single  time  to add personal feeling instead of cutting and pasting.  I can tell you in conversations there are not that many people who are saying what you are saying that continually relay their feelings to the state.  One local Game Agent or biologist is good but not as effective.